Curse

-Loki- · Sep 29, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You're running into the issue of whether something was intentional or not. Then, there's the issue of, at what point does playing for fun become griefing.

Regarding the first issue, I could play really badly on purpose - would you be able to prove it? e.g., I could monk and prot the wrong people, heal 5 seconds too late, etc. There are all kinds of ways to screw your team without making it look intentional - all you have to do is emulate a bad player.

Maybe I go to RA to try out experimental builds. Or maybe I just like to play some things for fun - shocking shortbow + thunderclap, for instance. Why should I be penalized just because someone doesn't like my build? So now Random Areans is play-to-win?

If you're going to argue that anything that reduces chances of winning, or, similarly, anything that does not contribute to winning, constitutes griefing, then you are simply helping the argument of the people who spam-quit RA. If I join a team where the people suck or run bad builds, they are reducing my chances of winning, so I shouldn't have to play with them, right? Put another way, if I see a wammo with dolyak sig, glad's defense, and riposte, should I report him as griefing?

The system doesn't work, because there's rarely an objective way to look at each case. Simply because the other three guys on your team think you are griefing doesn't mean you actually are.

Well said. ++

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Well said. ++

Yea that was a fantastic post, ty for it.

The mending monk is just lolz btw. People abusing me left right and centre.

Now an IW monk with a hammer.

Mercury Angel · Sep 29, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

I haven't submitted a report yet, so I've not seen the interface for it.

However, consider for the moment where you are at the moment; The forum moderation system is far from perfect, but yes, intent is a factor in moderation. There is a difference between people who do things because they don't know better, and people who do things with an intent to annoy, offend, or otherwise disrupt threads.

Running oddball things and being goofy is not a good reason to report people, and yes, people will likely abuse any report system in place.
However, the penalties are temporary, the system is subject to revision, and there's a difference between not running optimal builds, and running a build with intent to grief.

I don't think you can begin to talk about slippery slope fallacy without getting into the entirety of law enforcement, which undergoes similar issues. Of course, while it retains many similarities in respect to the issues of defining punishable behavior, and a consistent system of enforcement, a society does not hinge on the management of a video game.

If a person joins a match without intent to play, rather, to sacrifice themselves to death and do nothing for the match, even if you won't consider it griefing, is it not leeching then?
Is kamikaze-ing then leeching by extension?

I'll say the system probably needs improvements, but honestly, yes, Anet will likely never be able to solve the ethical dilemmas of criminal justice. Some people will be punished unfairly, while others get away. Any system of corrections is going to have this issue.
However, do bear in mind the alternative; The Random Arenas and Competitive Missions were having serious problems in playability due to rampant leeching and leaving.

If the ultimate result is an overall more enjoyable playing experience for people, are the consequences worth it? Can they be reduced sufficiently to be worth it through time and effort?

I think there's a definite possibility, so I'm going to wait and see how it goes.

Apologies on the rambling and contradictory opinions, but this really isn't something easy.

What I do know is that I swore off competitive missions long ago after having a team of 7 leechers/AFK, which, while not fixed by this, should hopefully be addressed indirectly by a decline in overall leechers.

NoXiFy · Sep 29, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilseabass

The OP has a legitimate point. What if it was a brand new player, with no PVP experience whatsoever, who went into Random Arenas with a piss-poor build? Would he be reported because his build sucked, or because he didnt know the map, or how to interact with his team?

Yea, poor RA MM's. That was such a leet build. Mainly cause I would rape them and /rank their dead body XD (Just kidding. don't ban me, k?).

Touch Rangers... gg. Anyone who runs a toucher is gonna be banned SO quickly. That means... i'll have to take my touching BACK to halls. (BTW, touching in ha is FTW, touching in halls... priceless.)

Mercury Angel · Sep 29, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The mending monk is just lolz btw. People abusing me left right and centre.

Now an IW monk with a hammer.

This specific comment isn't about whether it should be an offence or not, I've got a different question;

Are you, in all honesty, running these builds because you, personally, find the build itself to be fun and enjoyable?
Or are you running them because you want the attention it nets you, both positive and negative?

The manner in which you post on the forum seems to indicate that you do so intentionally because you know people will react, and that reaction is [what you] want. (edit: missed 2 words there

)

Are you unhappy with the update because the negative attention is now coming with consequences, or is it genuine concern about the abuse and issues with the system?

Does this impact whether or not some of the points are valid? Not at all. Good points are good points.
Does it impact how this topic is perceived?

You started off referencing a low health infuse/self-conditioner, which, by virtue of skill description sounds to be a self-sac build. A build which, upon this intentional death contributes nothing, while receiving the benefits of being a member of the team.
If you used it in this manner, is the system really not working as intended?

This is the first post people are going to see, and this is the post that will be in people's minds as they respond.

What I said earlier, that there's a case to be made here, I mean. But I also said that this case, this person, is not the right one to be centered around. This topic, in all honesty, appears to be more of an attention-grab than a serious look at the ramifications of the system, and I think any such posts are going to be drowned underneath the noise sparked by the opening post.

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

BTW, petition to remove dishonour system, ID1 RA on the boat.

Go stand there as long as you can.

Mercury angel I've been running gimmick builds a long long time because I enjoy them. RA is for fun, being reported for playing gimmick builds is not fun.

I have screenshots from when I duo sacced ages ago with a friend. It was immensely fun for us.

Once, a PVP guild I were in a long time ago played 8 Healing hands / Healing breeze wammos in both HA and GVG when the ladder was frozen. It was soooo funny I couldnt breathe. Especially our leader calling 'Number two is dying, omg you noobs put healing hands on him XD'

That was soooo much fun.

ZidaneRick · Sep 29, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

The moment i saw this on the updates page i knew it was a bad idea, i can guarantee that if its not changed then I am likely to never PvP again, because people will start reporting newbie for being just that.... a newbie.

Stealthc · Sep 29, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Sounds like the system is working as intended.

YunSooJin · Sep 29, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Its Random Arena for crying out loud..who the hell cares whether you win or lose?

If ANET wants to penalize people for griefing they might as well start with the people running borderline retard builds - they're griefing their teammates, their heroes and the henchies, right?

Burst Cancel · Sep 29, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

^ I agree. They should implement this in PvE too - no premature leaving (no matter how bad your teammates are), no bad builds, no leeroying, etc. etc. Fun.

The difference between the criminal justice system and this system is that criminal justice involves trials before courts and juries, where evidence is presented and arguments are made. Keep in mind that courts begin with a presumption of innocence. In contrast, the dishonor system begins with a presumption of guilt, and the punishment is instant and uncontestable. There is no showing of fact, nor arguments of reasoning - only tyranny of a majority (and not even an impartial majority). As such, criminal justice cannot be fairly compared with this system in any meaningful fashion.

I submit there are a substantial number of ways to abuse and misuse the dishonor reporting system. The most obvious instance: three teammates could report a fourth person just to get them off the team (the guy is a bad player, the team needed a monk instead, etc.).

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

People are still reporting me, even when I dont sac.

They report me when the opponents kill me, even though I warn them when the match starts:

YOU CANNOT REPORT ME FOR USING RANDOM SKILLS NAD HAVING 55HP IN RA, IM NOT LEECHING IF I AM ACTIVE - YOU'LL GET BANNED

One of my friends was monking, heres her story:

First round she was doing a sloppy job, so all her team mates insulted her. She couldnt leave because she didnt want dishonour points, so she said, 'ok if my healing is bad, next match I wont heal you'.

The next match she only healed herself and all three teamembers reprted her foe leeching.

Fix this s*** Anet, and im not asking for only my sake, but also others like my friend here

Mercury Angel · Sep 29, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The difference between the criminal justice system and this system is that criminal justice involves trials before courts and juries, where evidence is presented and arguments are made. Keep in mind that courts begin with a presumption of innocence. In contrast, the dishonor system begins with a presumption of guilt, and the punishment is instant and uncontestable. There is no showing of fact, nor arguments of reasoning - only tyranny of a majority (and not even an impartial majority). As such, criminal justice cannot be fairly compared with this system in any meaningful fashion.

You're put in jail for holding with many crimes before being released on bail, and your bail can be withheld.
The time period for which you're prevented from pvping is relatively short, though still admittedly annoying, and false reports are theoretically going to be punished. These aren't bans being thrown around, to the best of my knowledge.
Of course, I already admitted the analogy was problematic, so I'm not going to dwell on that. That specific point was in the difficulty of defining what is an offense, and how to handle it objectively, not in terms of necessity or usefulness. I stated in that same post, in other words, that society is heavily impacted by law, whereas, Guild Wars has lived for years without a system of handling leeching and griefing.
Conversely, due to the differing nature of impact of on individual's lives, as with the Civil Courts, the burden of proof is not as great. And yet again, any analogy is going to have flaws, and range from mildly useful at best, to completely useless at worst.

I will also readily admit that the theoretical human factor handling the cases on the support end, doesn't sound too promising. The support team is notoriously rigid in handling matters of infractions of conduct.
We also will never know how the cases are being handled, because of self-imposed confidentiality.

Even so, the system has been active for less than 24 hours, hasn't it? I'd still like to see it's impact on a longer term scale. The effects immediately after the point of implementation can be distorted, as was the case with the HA changes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

First round she was doing a sloppy job, so all her team mates insulted her. She couldnt leave because she didnt want dishonour points, so she said, 'ok if my healing is bad, next match I wont heal you'.

The next match she only healed herself and all three teamembers reprted her foe leeching.

Fix this s*** Anet, and im not asking for only my sake, but also others like my friend here

To the best of my knowledge, most people have no trouble leaving teams after a round has completed during the timer countdown. That is, a few people have complained about receiving dishonor points anyway, but this appears to be a bug in occurrence, as most do not. (Based on information on Guild Wiki)

Could your friend not have left after the completion of the first round without penalty without having to put up with the annoying teammates?

Even if she had told them where they could shove it and left, she'd have 5 points, and no dishonor status, and unless she accumulated more, they would have decayed after 60 minutes.

Mind you, this doesn't address the issue of bad reports, but we have yet to see how that will be handled. Since there's already a system in place that can disable reporting ability, with the 50 reports-per-day cap, ideally, a person that cries wolf gets it shut off. No clue what will be the case, but if someone wants to be the test case for seeing how this is handled?

thedeadwalk! · Sep 29, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Mercury angel I've been running gimmick builds a long long time because I enjoy them. RA is for fun, being reported for playing gimmick builds is not fun.

I have screenshots from when I duo sacced ages ago with a friend. It was immensely fun for us.

Once, a PVP guild I were in a long time ago played 8 Healing hands / Healing breeze wammos in both HA and GVG when the ladder was frozen. It was soooo funny I couldnt breathe. Especially our leader calling 'Number two is dying, omg you noobs put healing hands on him XD'

That was soooo much fun.

What you're doing is griefing. Can you really not see the difference in someone unwittingly putting together a poor bar, and someone consciously synergizing skills to sabotage their own team, or make impossible an opposing team's advancement with no ability of your own team's to take them down?

It's not Anet's intention to "ban" gimmick builds. Ritspike, bloodspike, IWAY, and what have you, are not being targeted. Only when builds are being used to "sabotage" other's playing experience, like I mentioned above, is what is trying to be stopped (which is what you enjoy doing). Had the report system been around during the Pestilence outbreak, people would have reported them.

As Mercury Angel said, you're playing for reaction. The builds you like are fun because you are essentially "unplaying" the game. Now, that's good for game testers to find flaws and annoyances in a game, and, as such, annoying when they happen upon players in the game. There's a difference between a tough build to beat or play against, and griefing. You are griefing, and are not a victim.

bhavv · Sep 29, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Could your friend not have left after the completion of the first round without penalty without having to put up with the annoying teammates?

It doesnt work like that, she thought she would have gotten dishonour points, thats why she didnt leave. If she knew otherwise she would have left. And I think you do get them after the match ends, im not sure.

Griefing isnt in the dictionary... What does it mean??? XD

The way I see it, im playing RA the way I want. Whether its invinci takn, healing hands wammo, mending bonder, MM, flare elly, or sac monk etc etc.... I find it fun to run gimmick builds. RA is where I can play these builds and I enjoy doing it. Ive been doing it a long time, so if its against the rules to invent crazy fun builds that abuse the poor secisions made by the development team, then why Havnt I been warned of banned yet?

Anet have also said regarding bans that they dont ban for misuse of game exploits as they have been unintentionally put in the game by them. Like the thing when there was a bug that allowed Pre searing chars to move to the GH, or when people were exploiting Urgoz farm, or when people were playing pestilence necro and Geo tanks in RA. These people dont get banned for playing builds they enjoy.

Again define Griefing. I can just use the same statement people use to rage quitters to you, if you dont like the builds people play in RA, go to TA and make your own team. If you lose due to poor skill bars, its not the players fault. True right? Thats why we cant rage quit now? XD.

Im not disscusing griefing anymore. I love gimmick builds in GW, always have, always will.

Brett Kuntz · Sep 29, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Sorry bhavv, but if 100% of your teammates think you're an idiot and report you for it, sounds like the system is working as intended. And for your information, no one is going to get banned for reporting someone else. Random Arena means Random teams, not bringing stupid skills, griefing your teammates, and whining like a little girl when you get prevented from PvPing.

Burst Cancel · Sep 29, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

I would actually say that the correct response in that case would be to report the three teammates for insulting her.

There's a more fundamental issue in that situation however - why should someone have to leave the game (say they're on a winning streak?)? If your answer is always going to be, "well, you can leave the game after that round", I submit that the system isn't necessary in the first place - if someone is griefing you, you can just leave the game, right? Nevermind the irony resulting from the fact that this system was put in place to prevent leaving.

And again the fundamental issue that people are basically just reporting whatever they want. When the effect is immediate, there's really no recourse for the injured party.

As for your analogies to criminal/civil law systems; they still aren't proper in light of your further reasoning. For instance, the time spent in jail prior to trial is a practical consideration (similarly, bail hearings regarding flight risk, etc.) - such a situation is not analogous to GW, because Anet always has access to your character. Judgment can be rendered at any time, even months after the fact. But, I agree, it's a minor issue, so I won't press the point further.

Lack of moderation is an issue, yet moderation itself would be an issue - and I don't even believe moderation could be implemented in a realistic fashion in this case. As you say, it's a difficult problem.

Edit: A lot of you are missing the point. You all state the bhavv is griefing because of his forum posts; I would actually tend to agree in this case. The problem is, there will be many cases where it is actually impossible to say one way or the other with any degree of certainty - again, the mending wammo? A good player playing a mending wammo could be construed as griefing, but your teammates wouldn't have any idea unless they knew the player was normally a good player. Furthermore, there's the grey area of "fun" builds - like my above-cited shocking shortbow + thunderclap. I'm having fun - not trying to ruin anyone else's fun. If we don't win, sorry - but I wasn't trying to get you all killed either.

Certainly, there will be clear cases of griefing - but that's not where the issues are going to be. If everything was a clear case of black and white, the right answer would always be obvious.

semantic · Sep 29, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Gd I'm so glad someone posted this coz theres something I wanted to get off my chest so bad.

I liek setting fires. kthxbai

There is a line between people just not 'getting' your sense of humor and pissing absolutely everyone off. You seem to be sitting on the latter side there.

Boops · Sep 29, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

random arena is intended for idiots

isn't it the first place you can pvp with a pvp character?

if you want a team that always has "good" people grab some friends and go to ta or w/e

if you're going to get picky enough to /report ppl for their build ra is NOT for you

Brett Kuntz · Sep 29, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Point is, a few points here and there wont matter (they go down 1 per minute), which means if one guy on your team reports you, by the time the match is over his report is already gone. Only when you are a repeat leaver, or are griefing to such a rate your entire team is reporting you, will you suffer. Lke I said, sounds like it's working as intended.

MagmaRed · Sep 29, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

It may be 'just RA', but that doesn't mean it is not based on winning. Why enter PvP if you don't try to win? If you want to have fun with a build, use it in PvE, or a guild scrimage. It sounds to me like the 'fun' builds you play are designed to do poorly in competition. You have fun with them because they disrupt the way others are trying to play. Do your builds offer ANYTHING useful to a team? Doesn't sound like it to me. This, in my opinion, is griefing, and is worthy of a /report.

Do I think all bad builds should be reported? Absolutely not. But there is a major difference between testing a build that may suck, and making a build that is supposed to suck.